Fairy Tales: A TVCU Quickie
THE TELEVISION CROSSOVER CROSSOVER UNIVERSE LAUNCHED JANUARY 10, 2011 CELEBRATING FOUR YEARS
This was one of my favorite of the quickies. The information on the worlds here has since been incorporated into my Once Upon a Time post (which was originally a post just on Fairy Tale Princesses). This post and that other mentioned will be integrated into my larger chronology entitled "ONCE UPON A TIME: FAIRY TALES OF THE TELEVISION CROSSOVER UNIVERSE", which will be appearing in either volume I or II or TELEVISION CROSSOVER UNIVERSE: WORLDS AND MYTHOLOGY, the first attempt at publishing TVCU books that have a mix of new material and reprinted (but updated and expanded) blog posts.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What's a quickie? See this blog.
Fairy tales can be very complicated when piecing together a shared reality. Because they are public domain, they tend to get incorporated into a number of different fantasy series, and each time the writers of that series put their own personal spin on the tale.
For the TVCU dynamic, we originally had the premise that fairy tale characters had existed in the past of the TVCU based on Dennis Powers' interpretations in his Immortal Befuddled. Any other stories that involved fairy tale characters crossing with TVCU series were the same characters, except in circumstances where the characters magically came from a book or were pictures brought to life.
Meanwhile, the Looniverse had its own version of the fairy tales characters, which were mostly the Disney films. These also took place in the proper past time periods, but the characters, being toons, maintained immortality.
I later removed Immortal Befuddled from the TVCU canon (simply to maintain the integrity of the view that events in the TVCU happened as we see them on the screen.) So instead, the TVCU versions of the fairy tale characters very loosely now became that which we saw on the screen, in crosses with TVCU series, even if sometimes there was more than one contrary version.
And then, when I thought it was all settled and cemented, along came Once Upon a Time. Once Upon a Time jumped right in with crosses with Lost, so I couldn't ignore the show. And in fact, since this was the strongest TV presence of fairy tale characters, this show would have to trump any other version.
But it doesn't have to. The characters on Once Upon a Time come from a group of interconnected pocket realities. And within the canon of this series, the story of Snow White and most other fairy tales only happened about 30 years ago. In fact, the oldest of the characters is only about 300 years old.
Most fairy tales are much older than that. So my usual theory about psychic writers doesn't apply so well here. Oh, sure, I could say the Brothers Grimm were seeing the future when they came up with their stories, but I don't buy it, mainly because there is still evidence of crossovers with fairly tale characters in their original time frames with TVCU characters, which are clearly not the same versions as those in Once Upon a Time.
So we must assume the characters from Once Upon a Time are not the same TVCU fairy tale characters, even if Storybrooke is in the TVCU. To explain further, I might sidestep into a detour to discuss another TVCU theoretical concept.
In the beginning, there was but one universe in the TVCU, and almost out of necessity, a mirror universe was created. In between was an empty void. But then there was a rift between the Time Lords. Some followed the ways of Bill, some of Ted. Half of the Time Lords decided the universe wasn't right, so they made their own copy. One of the changes they made to their reality was to banish magic. (Perhaps this was to reduce the threat of the Old Ones.) The magic from this second world (which we now call the Whoniverse) was sent into the void. There, the magic began forming pocket realities, filled with magic, and resembling Earth, but in bizarre and warped ways.
Some of these realities formed the cartoon realities. But others were the fairy tale realms, as seen in Once Upon a Time. Thus, the fairy tale characters from Once Upon a Time are doppelgangers of the TVCU counterparts. This doesn't mean that they aren't real. They are very real. But at the same time, they are real duplicates, having the same stories, but in different fashion.
Based on what we've seen of the show (and its spin-off, Once Upon a Time in Wonderland), here are the various realities that seem to be connected by Once Upon a Time, and how they translate into the TVCU concept.
THE LAND WITHOUT MAGIC--This is "the real world", where Storybrooke is created when the curse is enacted. For our purposes, thanks to a few crosses, starting with Lost, this is the Television Crossover Universe. Of course, there's plenty of magic in the Television Crossover Universe. However, there is different types of magic, but to us normal people, we can't tell the difference. But the magic of the fairy tale realms clearly is different than TVCU magic, and thus doesn't operate in the TVCU, except within the confines of Storybrooke starting with season 2. The series shows that Wendy (from Peter Pan) was actually from the Land without Magic. This means that the Peter Pan story of the TVCU and Once Upon a Time are the same. This seems to be the only instance.
FAIRY TALE LAND--This is the land where most of the fairy tale characters come from. It includes the Enchanted Forest, which is surrounded by several kingdoms. It also includes some far off lands, such as Agrabah (from Aladdin), the far off land of Mulan (aka China), and another far off land where Medusa (from Greek mythology) lives. Likely Pandora's Box also originated in the land of Medusa.
WONDERLAND--There has been a lot of discussion among the crew regarding this Wonderland. James of course is our resident expert, and whatever he decides is canon for the TVCU on this topic. But it seems to be, based on current evidence, that this can't be the original Wonderland visited by the Alice of the TVCU. Because the OUATIW Alice isn't from the TVCU. See next.
ALICE'S WORLD--When Once Upon a Time in Wonderland debuted, it was a bit confusing as to where Alice was from. Alice was a young adult, and Wonderland had seemed to move in time along with Alice's world. Alice was from Victorian England. In the opening, the White Rabbit comes from Wonderland, travels to Storybrooke in the present, then to Alice's Victorian England. At first, we thought perhaps Alice was from the TVCU, and that the Rabbit could time travel, but as the season progressed, it became clear that Alice actually came from an alternate world where it was currently the 1800s. Though it hasn't yet been shown, it could be that there are other characters from Victorian literature in this world.
THE LAND WHERE MAGIC IS CALLED SCIENCE--This is the land of Victor Frankenstein. Theoretically, other classic horror and science fiction literature could exist here, but no evidence has been presented to support that. Also, it's possible that this might be Alice's World.
CAPTAIN HOOK'S HOME WORLD--Captain Hook's homeworld is tough to nail down. He may have come from the Land without Magic (TVCU). His brother is Davy Jones, and he has a compass that appears broken only because it only points to one's heart desire (i.e. Pirates of the Caribbean). Sure, the magic they use to get to Neverland seems to imply it can't be the Land without Magic, but Peter Pan's shadow visited Wendy using that same magic, so apparently the magic of Neverland can work in the Land without magic. Another theory is that Hook comes from Alice's World.
LAND OF THE GIANTS--The giants (from Jack and the Beanstalk) live in their own real accessible via beanstalks grown from magic beans.
THE STAR WARS GALAXY--In Once Upon a Time in Wonderland, the Red Queen is looking through a book of horrors she possesses, and one is the Sarlacc, described just like in Return of the Jedi.
OZ--In the OUAT pilot, in Henry's book, there is a picture of the Wicked Witch and Dorothy. It could be that Oz, once finally fully revealed, will be part of the Enchanted Forest. Dorothy may be from the Land without Magic, or maybe Alice's World. Probably not the same version from the recent Supernatural episode.
ASGARD--Thor's hammer is scene in Rumpelstiltskin's collection.
MARVEL (CINEMATIC) UNIVERSE--This is totally speculative. Everything fictional in Henry's world seems to be real elsewhere, and Henry has a stack of Avengers comics in his room. Disney owns both this show and Marvel Comics, as well as ABC, the network that airs Agents of SHIELD and OUAT.
TRON--One of the recurring crossovers in OUAT is that Henry plays the fictional game that was featured in the film Tron. Since the game is real in Henry's world, that means the film Tron exists in the Land without Magic, and the world within the game is one of the realms of fiction.
NARNIA--Even more speculative is this one. Emma was transported to the Land without Magic via a wardrobe. Yes, the wardrobe was a portal between worlds.
PONGO'S WORLD--I'm alone apparently in caring about this, but if everyone in Storybrooke was from a fairy tale world, or some story previously done by Disney, then the dog Pongo must be the same Pongo from 101 Dalmatians.
I think that is all right now. There have been several ways to travel between worlds thus far. Of course most of the characters came to Storybrooke via a curse. Emma and Pinocchio came via the wardrobe. Baelfire came via a magic spell that created a portal. Snow and Emma later went to the Enchanted Forest via the Mad Hatter's hat, which has doors to all the wolds. (It's bigger on the inside!) Magic beans have also been used to travel between worlds. Mirrors works as portals to Wonderland. The White Rabbit also has the power to create holes between worlds. You can reach Neverland in your dreams, or if you can fly, by heading to the second star to the right, and straight on 'till morning. And mermaids can swim between realms with ease. Of course, there are other speculative ways, based on some of the realms only loosely associated. For instance, characters from Star Wars have come to Earth via wormholes. There's of course the connection between Oz and tornadoes. There's Asgard and rainbow bridges. And of course, getting zapped into video games like in Tron.
Come join the discussion about fairy tales or other TVCU related topics here.
Here is the Toob World view on Fairy Tales.
Rather than a mini-chron, here's some links to some of the fairy tale related chronologies on our site.
This was one of my favorite of the quickies. The information on the worlds here has since been incorporated into my Once Upon a Time post (which was originally a post just on Fairy Tale Princesses). This post and that other mentioned will be integrated into my larger chronology entitled "ONCE UPON A TIME: FAIRY TALES OF THE TELEVISION CROSSOVER UNIVERSE", which will be appearing in either volume I or II or TELEVISION CROSSOVER UNIVERSE: WORLDS AND MYTHOLOGY, the first attempt at publishing TVCU books that have a mix of new material and reprinted (but updated and expanded) blog posts.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What's a quickie? See this blog.
Fairy tales can be very complicated when piecing together a shared reality. Because they are public domain, they tend to get incorporated into a number of different fantasy series, and each time the writers of that series put their own personal spin on the tale.
For the TVCU dynamic, we originally had the premise that fairy tale characters had existed in the past of the TVCU based on Dennis Powers' interpretations in his Immortal Befuddled. Any other stories that involved fairy tale characters crossing with TVCU series were the same characters, except in circumstances where the characters magically came from a book or were pictures brought to life.
Meanwhile, the Looniverse had its own version of the fairy tales characters, which were mostly the Disney films. These also took place in the proper past time periods, but the characters, being toons, maintained immortality.
I later removed Immortal Befuddled from the TVCU canon (simply to maintain the integrity of the view that events in the TVCU happened as we see them on the screen.) So instead, the TVCU versions of the fairy tale characters very loosely now became that which we saw on the screen, in crosses with TVCU series, even if sometimes there was more than one contrary version.
And then, when I thought it was all settled and cemented, along came Once Upon a Time. Once Upon a Time jumped right in with crosses with Lost, so I couldn't ignore the show. And in fact, since this was the strongest TV presence of fairy tale characters, this show would have to trump any other version.
But it doesn't have to. The characters on Once Upon a Time come from a group of interconnected pocket realities. And within the canon of this series, the story of Snow White and most other fairy tales only happened about 30 years ago. In fact, the oldest of the characters is only about 300 years old.
Most fairy tales are much older than that. So my usual theory about psychic writers doesn't apply so well here. Oh, sure, I could say the Brothers Grimm were seeing the future when they came up with their stories, but I don't buy it, mainly because there is still evidence of crossovers with fairly tale characters in their original time frames with TVCU characters, which are clearly not the same versions as those in Once Upon a Time.
So we must assume the characters from Once Upon a Time are not the same TVCU fairy tale characters, even if Storybrooke is in the TVCU. To explain further, I might sidestep into a detour to discuss another TVCU theoretical concept.
In the beginning, there was but one universe in the TVCU, and almost out of necessity, a mirror universe was created. In between was an empty void. But then there was a rift between the Time Lords. Some followed the ways of Bill, some of Ted. Half of the Time Lords decided the universe wasn't right, so they made their own copy. One of the changes they made to their reality was to banish magic. (Perhaps this was to reduce the threat of the Old Ones.) The magic from this second world (which we now call the Whoniverse) was sent into the void. There, the magic began forming pocket realities, filled with magic, and resembling Earth, but in bizarre and warped ways.
Some of these realities formed the cartoon realities. But others were the fairy tale realms, as seen in Once Upon a Time. Thus, the fairy tale characters from Once Upon a Time are doppelgangers of the TVCU counterparts. This doesn't mean that they aren't real. They are very real. But at the same time, they are real duplicates, having the same stories, but in different fashion.
Based on what we've seen of the show (and its spin-off, Once Upon a Time in Wonderland), here are the various realities that seem to be connected by Once Upon a Time, and how they translate into the TVCU concept.
THE LAND WITHOUT MAGIC--This is "the real world", where Storybrooke is created when the curse is enacted. For our purposes, thanks to a few crosses, starting with Lost, this is the Television Crossover Universe. Of course, there's plenty of magic in the Television Crossover Universe. However, there is different types of magic, but to us normal people, we can't tell the difference. But the magic of the fairy tale realms clearly is different than TVCU magic, and thus doesn't operate in the TVCU, except within the confines of Storybrooke starting with season 2. The series shows that Wendy (from Peter Pan) was actually from the Land without Magic. This means that the Peter Pan story of the TVCU and Once Upon a Time are the same. This seems to be the only instance.
FAIRY TALE LAND--This is the land where most of the fairy tale characters come from. It includes the Enchanted Forest, which is surrounded by several kingdoms. It also includes some far off lands, such as Agrabah (from Aladdin), the far off land of Mulan (aka China), and another far off land where Medusa (from Greek mythology) lives. Likely Pandora's Box also originated in the land of Medusa.
WONDERLAND--There has been a lot of discussion among the crew regarding this Wonderland. James of course is our resident expert, and whatever he decides is canon for the TVCU on this topic. But it seems to be, based on current evidence, that this can't be the original Wonderland visited by the Alice of the TVCU. Because the OUATIW Alice isn't from the TVCU. See next.
ALICE'S WORLD--When Once Upon a Time in Wonderland debuted, it was a bit confusing as to where Alice was from. Alice was a young adult, and Wonderland had seemed to move in time along with Alice's world. Alice was from Victorian England. In the opening, the White Rabbit comes from Wonderland, travels to Storybrooke in the present, then to Alice's Victorian England. At first, we thought perhaps Alice was from the TVCU, and that the Rabbit could time travel, but as the season progressed, it became clear that Alice actually came from an alternate world where it was currently the 1800s. Though it hasn't yet been shown, it could be that there are other characters from Victorian literature in this world.
THE LAND WHERE MAGIC IS CALLED SCIENCE--This is the land of Victor Frankenstein. Theoretically, other classic horror and science fiction literature could exist here, but no evidence has been presented to support that. Also, it's possible that this might be Alice's World.
CAPTAIN HOOK'S HOME WORLD--Captain Hook's homeworld is tough to nail down. He may have come from the Land without Magic (TVCU). His brother is Davy Jones, and he has a compass that appears broken only because it only points to one's heart desire (i.e. Pirates of the Caribbean). Sure, the magic they use to get to Neverland seems to imply it can't be the Land without Magic, but Peter Pan's shadow visited Wendy using that same magic, so apparently the magic of Neverland can work in the Land without magic. Another theory is that Hook comes from Alice's World.
LAND OF THE GIANTS--The giants (from Jack and the Beanstalk) live in their own real accessible via beanstalks grown from magic beans.
THE STAR WARS GALAXY--In Once Upon a Time in Wonderland, the Red Queen is looking through a book of horrors she possesses, and one is the Sarlacc, described just like in Return of the Jedi.
OZ--In the OUAT pilot, in Henry's book, there is a picture of the Wicked Witch and Dorothy. It could be that Oz, once finally fully revealed, will be part of the Enchanted Forest. Dorothy may be from the Land without Magic, or maybe Alice's World. Probably not the same version from the recent Supernatural episode.
ASGARD--Thor's hammer is scene in Rumpelstiltskin's collection.
MARVEL (CINEMATIC) UNIVERSE--This is totally speculative. Everything fictional in Henry's world seems to be real elsewhere, and Henry has a stack of Avengers comics in his room. Disney owns both this show and Marvel Comics, as well as ABC, the network that airs Agents of SHIELD and OUAT.
TRON--One of the recurring crossovers in OUAT is that Henry plays the fictional game that was featured in the film Tron. Since the game is real in Henry's world, that means the film Tron exists in the Land without Magic, and the world within the game is one of the realms of fiction.
NARNIA--Even more speculative is this one. Emma was transported to the Land without Magic via a wardrobe. Yes, the wardrobe was a portal between worlds.
PONGO'S WORLD--I'm alone apparently in caring about this, but if everyone in Storybrooke was from a fairy tale world, or some story previously done by Disney, then the dog Pongo must be the same Pongo from 101 Dalmatians.
I think that is all right now. There have been several ways to travel between worlds thus far. Of course most of the characters came to Storybrooke via a curse. Emma and Pinocchio came via the wardrobe. Baelfire came via a magic spell that created a portal. Snow and Emma later went to the Enchanted Forest via the Mad Hatter's hat, which has doors to all the wolds. (It's bigger on the inside!) Magic beans have also been used to travel between worlds. Mirrors works as portals to Wonderland. The White Rabbit also has the power to create holes between worlds. You can reach Neverland in your dreams, or if you can fly, by heading to the second star to the right, and straight on 'till morning. And mermaids can swim between realms with ease. Of course, there are other speculative ways, based on some of the realms only loosely associated. For instance, characters from Star Wars have come to Earth via wormholes. There's of course the connection between Oz and tornadoes. There's Asgard and rainbow bridges. And of course, getting zapped into video games like in Tron.
Come join the discussion about fairy tales or other TVCU related topics here.
Here is the Toob World view on Fairy Tales.
Rather than a mini-chron, here's some links to some of the fairy tale related chronologies on our site.
Fairy Tale Princess in the Television Crossover Multiverse
TVCU CREW REVIEW
Here are some of the more recent posts regarding fairy tales in the TVCU discussion forum.
Here are some of the more recent posts regarding fairy tales in the TVCU discussion forum.
Are you looking for a fairy tale mega-crossover? But you're so danged disappointed that they all lack lengthy porn scenes? And you're even more bummed that you have to pay money for them? Then this is the FREE, pornographic fairy tale novel you've been looking for.
But really, I did read it. And it wasn't utterly terrible (the porn is restricted to a laughably bad scene near the end).
The Hatter is Tarrant. Hatter-prime *certainly* doesn't fit the descriptions of a bug-eyed "sexy" man. No other Wonderland characters appear.
This novel--along with Ever After High, Beautiful Madness, "The Cheshire," some of the stories from the Ace Alice collection, and the God-save-us awful horror novel Mirrors--are helping to form a secondary grand unified Wonderland theory which should stitch everything together just as well as Alyss Hart the Chaos Queen.
But really, I did read it. And it wasn't utterly terrible (the porn is restricted to a laughably bad scene near the end).
The Hatter is Tarrant. Hatter-prime *certainly* doesn't fit the descriptions of a bug-eyed "sexy" man. No other Wonderland characters appear.
This novel--along with Ever After High, Beautiful Madness, "The Cheshire," some of the stories from the Ace Alice collection, and the God-save-us awful horror novel Mirrors--are helping to form a secondary grand unified Wonderland theory which should stitch everything together just as well as Alyss Hart the Chaos Queen.
Model 1 sort of explains the Looniverse, Wonderland, Fairy Tale Land, ect. Model 2 is sort of the best explanation for the Whoniverse and Mirror Universe. Whereas Model 3 explains my "Hypertime" for the TVCU, with the alternate divergent timelines, like the TVCU2.
Why do I do this to myself?
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Bonus. Horror Crossover Universe!
TALES OF THE SHADOWMEN VOLUME 4: LORDS OF TERROR “THE RELUCTANT PRINCESS” (SHORT STORY BY RANDY LOFFICIER)
Release Date: 2008 (Setting is 1928)
Series: Tales of the Shadowmen
Horror Crosses: Sar Dubnotal
Non-Horror Crosses: Doc Ardan; Phantom Angel; Doc Savage; Sleeping Beauty; Rouletabille
The Story: Doc Ardan saves a princess who isn’t so keen on being rescued. Later, she becomes a heroic vigilante called the Phantom Angel.
HCU Comments: Sar Dubnotal does not appear, but his enemy Azzef does. Doc Ardan is from the novel Doc Ardan: City of Gold and Lepers. In the English translation of this French novel, Randy and Jean-Marc Lofficier conflate Doc Ardan with Doc Savage. For the purposes of this book, I shall list them as separate series but we should consider them as the same person. Sleeping Beauty is the classic fairy tale as told by Charles Perrault. We can consider his original version of the story as being canon, and then no other story prior to this one, and her then continued adventures as Lofficier’s Phantom Angel. Rouletabille appears often in Shadowmen tales, and here becomes a supporting player in the Phantom Angel
SWORDS AGAINST DARKNESS “THE RING OF SET” (STORY BY RICHARD L. TIERNEY)
Release Date: 1977 (Story is set in 37 A.D.)
Series: Simon of Gitta
Horror Crosses: Lovecraft’s Cthulhu Mythos
The Story: Simon Magus is a wizard in the time of Jesus (and just following his death) who finds himself drawn to battle evil for the love of the beautiful Helen.
HCU Comments: Simon Magus is a historical figure who appeared in the Bible and figured in later folklore. Here, Tierney combines this Biblical figure with Lovecraftian horror in a series of stories. Most of the stories are collected in The Scroll of Thoth.
THE FRANKENSTEIN/DRACULA WAR # 1 - 3 (TOPPS COMICS)
Release Date: February - April 1995 (Setting is 1796)
Series: Frankenstein (Topps); Dracula (Topps)
The Story: The Monster is trying to live an ordinary life among humans when the Count de Saint-Germain blackmails him into attacking Dracula.
HCU Comments: It’s an HCU rule here to keep versions of Dracula and the Monster separate based on the author or comic book company. The Topps Dracula is brought in via a reference in Spike Vs. Dracula to Dracula’s battle with Zorro. Because of this, this could be the same Dracula from Buffy the Vampire Slayer. However, seeing as how Jean-Marc Lofficier is a co-author of this tale, the Topps Dracula is more likely the same Dracula which I consider to be the same Dracula from Bram Stoker’s novel. The Count de Saint-Germaine was a real historical figure who claimed to be immortal, thus does not count for crossovers. Likewise, Dracula’s mention of the Golem from Jewish folklore does not count as a crossover.
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